How to determine when KVM vm was created?

OS is Debian. Not asking about uptime of course, but I would like to determine when vm was created and/or first booted. Normally you can do something like: stat / and check birth time, but for a kvm vm it just shows "-". (I've seen this issue on bare metal systems as well sometimes, not sure why) What is a foolproof way to check when a server was created? Is this even possible? Wondering about kvm vms, but would be interested in a solution for bare metal systems that for one reason or another show "-" for birth time. Edit: I was assuming that KVM vms are created from images. I realize now that it's possible to create KVM vms from an installer, but for this question, assume image. Is this possible to determine in this case?